庆典

混杂是自由的开始
  ——关于三月八日，“庆典——自由的1|6注解”的对话
Mix is the Beginning of Freedom

---On the Conversations of “Celebration---1/6 Annotation of Freedom” on 8th, March



Part 1  人物：

周斌 刘成英 吴承典 倪昆


  Part one
Participants:


周斌(zhou Bin) 
刘成英(Liu Chengying) 
吴承典(Wu Chengdian) 
倪昆(Ni
Kun)

时间：2009年3月17日
方式：QQ对话
Date: March 17th, 2009
Communicative Means: Chatting on
QQ

倪昆：“庆典”现场，中间涉及到一个关键点，在我看来，首先它在形态呈现上，和大家都约定的“行为艺术作品”有一定的出入，各位艺术家，我想了解你们对于这个问题的看法。


这个问题可分几个层面，一，现场的多线条现实；二，两种形态（行为+声音）的叙事交叉；三；个体艺术家作品的非线性特征；四，作品内容叙事的模糊。


倪昆(Ni Kun): The scene of “Celebration”
involves a key point. In my opinion, firstly on the way of presentation, it
  differs from the performance art. So here I want to know your views towards
  this question. This question can be divided into four levels: First of all, the
  multi-line fact on the scene. Secondly, narrative intersection of two forms
  (performance and sounds). Thirdly, non-linear
characteristics of
individual artist’s works. At last, the obscurity of narration on content. 
 
周斌：
“庆典”是行为和声音的结合现场，我和刘成英、吴承典的现场还是属于行为的特征，只是在过去，中国行为艺术的招数太少，样式狭窄，而“庆典”中的行为部分是一次在行为现场样式上的拓展。同时我们又混搭声音进去，进行媒材跨界的同场呈现。


这个活动谋划了4个月，而艺术家的集中讨论只有二次，就是想去除作品中的设性，去除主题化、叙事性和作品的线性呈现，回避默契化倾向，逼迫艺术家能够更好的在现场产生自己的即兴反应。

周斌(zhou Bin):
“Celebration”is the combining scene of
performance and sound. Liu’s, Wu’s and my scenes are still characterized with performance. It’s only because that in the past, performance art in
China lack variety on its presentation.The performance part in “Celebration” is an extension of performance form on the scene. At the same time, we mix them with sound to present multi mediums at the same occasion. 

This activity has been planned for four months while it was only discussed twice by all artists who want to eliminate the hypothesis, the thematisation, the narrative tendency and the linear presentation of works and to obviate the tacit trend in order to finally force the artists to have their own improvisations on the scene. 
吴承典：
现场艺术本身就涉及到几方面的概念。而“场”的概念是我关心的。它是一个多层次交错的空间。不是简单的三维空间。这次在一定程度上实现了。但是（我觉得）缺少和观者的深度共鸣。也缺少对现成“场”的破坏性。艺术家和观者之间的线索，声音之间的关系，影像之间的关系，行为之间的关系，都应继续探讨。
吴承典(WuChengdian):
Scene art involves several concepts. The concept of “field” is what I concerned about. It is a space with multi-levels which connects with each other, instead of a simple three-dimensional space. To some extent it is achieved this time. However, I think what’s absent is deeper sharing of feelings
with the audiences, and the destructionto current “field”. The connections between the artists and the audiences, between sounds, between images and between
performances all require further discussion.
刘成英：
还有就是行为者与音乐者之间的现场默契配合与相互制约的把握，也可以说是“庆典”的核心部分。场域的改变对行为者的互动提出另外一种可能性和未知，以往的经验已经不适合这个场域了，那么新的场域就应该寻求另一种东西。
刘成英(LiuChengying):
In addition to that, the control of cooperation and mutual restriction between artists and musicians on the scene
can even be regarded as the core of “celebration”. The change of field provides the artists’interaction with another kind of possibility and unknown. Former experience has already been unsuitable for this field and new field should seek other ways. 
倪昆：据我了解，之前周斌和欢庆（成都音乐人）的合作，及吴承典之前的“现场作品”，都有多种媒介结合的尝试，我想艺术家结合之前的作品，来谈谈关于这两次创作的体会

倪昆(Ni Kun):As far as I know, thecooperative work between Zhou Bin and Huan qing( Local Chengdu musician) , and the “scene work” conducted by Wu Chengdian earlier are both attempts of the
combination of multi mediums. Can you talk about your feelings of these two creating process based on your
works?
吴承典：
我之前的作品《混帐》，是想在一个限定的空间里，企图用抽象的外在因素来削弱既有的行为的现成模式。想找出新的可能，看是否能达到相互消解的目的，就象一部精心编导的电影，情节和时间被有意打乱。《混帐》是按严格的方案设定完成的，没有偶发。指向性很明确。
吴承典(WuChengdian):
My previous work Scoundrel was created for the purpose of weakening current performance pattern with abstract adventitious factors within a limited space. It aimed at searching for new possibilities. Scoundrelwas
performed with strict plan. This work had clear orientation and it had no happening. 
周斌：
之前我和欢庆的合作是成熟的创作状态，而这次更注重对过去经验的反动和对未知的实验与尝试。那时我俩会事先围绕要表达的观念，就行为和声音的表现形式进行多次推敲，进而是行为和声音的配合，而到现场是按部就班的呈现，即兴和偶发的成分少。
另外在现阶段，作为有一定实践经验的艺术家，不应在观念和形式上局限于某种固定的标准，而应把自己的探索与实践建立在自己的直觉与经验上，去创作能够令自己感动和认可的作品，不要太去寻找美术史的依据，束缚自己的手脚。
周斌(zhou Bin):

The cooperation between me and Huan Qing earlier is a mature state of creation. Whereas our cooperation this time pays more attention to the reactionary aspect to former experience, the experiment and try to the unknown.
At that time we earlier discussed many times on the ideas we wanted to express and on how did we express performance and sounds, then was the cooperation
between performance and sounds. We presented our work according to our former supposition when we were on the scene. Impromptu and happenings were quite few in our work.Currently, artist with certain
experience of practice should not be confined to certain fixed standard on notions and forms. He should base his exploration and practice on intuition and experience, and create more moving and acceptable works. Search for too much clues in art history will only bind his thinking during
creation.
倪昆：我就接着老吴和老刘的话题来谈，，刚刚老刘说到了“打破场域”，老吴指出，怎样来面对“观者”，，这是有所指的。这里头包含了艺术家自己对于艺术逻辑的个人理解。刚刚周斌谈了一些，我想问，关于行为这个媒介，你们认为，它的价值主要体现在那里，另外，行为艺术和现场艺术，这两个概念，你们是怎么看待？
倪昆(Ni Kun):
Ok, now it’s my turn. I will further discuss the topic mentioned by Wu and Liu. Just now Liu talked about “to break the field”. Wu mentioned the question of “how to face the audiences”. Here it refers to something. It contains artists’ understandings towards art logic. Just now Zhou Bin also mentioned some points. My question here is: In your views,
what is the value of performance as a medium? In addition, how do you think about Performance Art and Scene Art?
周斌：
行为这种媒介的价值在于其特征定义的困难性所导致的无所不可的无限的实验空间。而人的身体成为其主要的创作媒材使行为艺术具备了穿刺人感官和思想的最有力的力量。
目前，我并不关心我的创作是行为或着其他，形式上的实验在其次，它的拓展是跟着我的直觉和经验在走，我的目的是自己的思考和感受能够用最恰当的形式得以表达。
周斌(zhou Bin):
Performance, as a medium, has value which lies in its infinite experimental space caused by the difficulty of
its definition. The fact that artist’s body becomes the main creating medium endows performance art with the strongest power on moving people’s heart. 
At present, I don’t care whether my works are performance or other pattern. Experimentation on form is secondary.
The broadening of it develops with my intuition and experience. My purpose is to express my thinking and feelings in the most appropriate form. 
 刘成英：
我认为必须要颠覆行为这个概念。至于怎样颠覆正是我们需要讨论和要去探索的。周斌最初提出做这个活动我就觉得太及时了。先锋艺术的生命力就是需要不断的创新，要不然行为艺术在世人的眼里快成传统艺术了，换句话说就是该下课了。

刘成英(Liu Chengying):
From my point of view, it is necessary to subvert the concept of “performance”. The question how to subvert
is exactly what we need to discuss and explore. This activity Zhou Bin firstly proposed, in my opinion, is really at the right time. The existence and development of avant-garde requires unceasing innovation, or else performance
art will become traditional art for the public, in other words, it is the time or performance art to end.
吴承典：
我的出发点很简单，传统的行为有成为即定模式的顷向，观者的心灵感受局限在视觉上或仅限旁观。艺术家要考虑和观者的更深层面的多点和多线性的“互动”。或可以说借助其它媒介和手段来完成艺术家和观者的“交流”。

吴承典(Wu Chengdian)：
My starting point for this is relatively simple. It’s possible
for traditional performance to form fixed pattern. Audience’s feeling is restricted to visual part or even to onlooker. Artists should consider deeper multi-point and multi-linear
interaction with audiences, or consider use of other medium and means to achieve communication.

倪昆：我想老刘所指的“颠覆”，首先就是形态上和以往行为作品的剥离，这确实是有益的，至少，看了“庆典”的人，都会觉得它更生动。周斌提到艺术家的“直觉和本能”，老刘提到“场域”，老吴则说到“互动”，这里头有大家对于自己创作方向的体验和认知，核心点，我觉得是在寻找一种更有机的表述。“庆典”应该就是在这个背景下产生的。现在我想大家谈谈，第一次尝试结束后的个人体会。如果存在作品创作之前的预设，它和你们之前的预设，有多大的距离？

倪昆(Ni Kun): I think the “subversion” Liu mentioned here firstly refers to the separation from the
former performance works on form. This is indeed beneficial. At least audiences on “Celebration” feel it’s more interesting and vivid than the former works.
Zhou Bin mentioned artists’ “intuition and instinct”.Liu mentioned “field”, Wu mentioned “interaction”. What you said here include your experience and
understanding towards your creating direction. I think you’re probably searching for a more organic expression. “Celebration” should appear in this background. Now I want to hear your feelings after your first attempt? If you have presupposition before your creation, is there a big gap between the final result
and your presupposition?
周斌：
一扇虚掩的门被推开了，轻松、自由、始终伴随着兴奋感的创作体验又回来了，这种快乐的感受，我认为是分辨自己是否走在适合于自己的工作方向上的标准。我很满意这次的现场，甚至在想下次能超越多少。即兴或互动等等都是手段不是目的，现场的感觉好最重要。
周斌(zhou Bin):
A door ajar is opened. Relaxed, free and unceasingly exciting experiences return back again. This cheerful feeling, in my view, is a standard to make out whether we’ve chosen the right work suitable to ourselves. I’m quite satisfied with this scene and I keep thinking how much I can surpass next time. Both impromptu and interaction are means instead of final purpose. Good feeling on
the scene is the most important.
刘成英：
在展览前看现场时，我和周斌讨论艺术家是否可以走出划定的表演区，我当时的直觉告诉我如果那样的话现场可能会混乱，于是作出了否定。现在想起这一点有点后悔，当时的想法完全被经验所害。从这一点上看，几乎扼杀了现场所有的互动和即兴、偶发的东西。就我自己的感受而言，现场实施的过程有一些即兴的东西，都是围绕自己之前的想法在完成作品，与其他艺术家和现场观众的互动和融合不够。当然，整体效果我认为倪昆和观众谈比较合适。我至今都还感受不到整体效果怎样。我还是比较满意自己现场的应变能力。
刘成英(Liu Chengying):
Before the performance, Zhou Bin and I discussed whether artists could conduct their works outside the set area when we saw the scene. My intuition at that time made me believe if in that case the whole scene would be
in a mess. Then I denied this thought without thinking. Now I’m even kind of regretful. My wrong thought at that time was totally caused by experience. Consider on this point, this nearly make all interaction, impromptu
and happenings impossible. With regards to my own feeling, some impromptu appeared during the process of creation on the scene while on the whole my work
was conducted according to my earlier thinking and the interaction and fusion with other artists and audiences was not enough. Of course, as referred to the whole effect, I think Ni Kun can talk with the audiences. That’ll be more appropriate because even to now I still can’t tell exactly about the whole effect. Anyhow, I’m satisfied with my handling measures on the scene.
吴承典：
感到作品现场的完整性和流畅感是一个错误的结果。这是个人前期预设的结果。真正的偶发还没出现。而结果就是我们可预见的了。片段的精彩是好的，但还期待找到另一种可能性。我前期预设的破坏活动没实现。应该尝试把更多的元素带入场里，找寻彼此的内在关系和不一样的结果。
吴承典(WuChengdian):
I think the integrity and smoothness of the scene is a wrong result. It is the outcome of presupposition. True happenings haven’t occurred yet while we’ve already foreseen the result. It’s splendid of the piece while we’re still in search for other possibilities. The destruction of my presupposition didn’t be fulfilled. I should have a try to bring more elements to the scene and search for inner relation and different
outcome.
倪昆：
3．8现场是一个很完整的现场，因为作为另外一个媒介的“声音”，它在现场的呈现，就非常的独立和完整。这种独立和完整，一方面让整个作品非常的有机，这也势必会造成“有控制感”。我更加倾向于将它作为一个独立作品来看。刚刚老刘，老吴和周斌的体会就存在明显的不同，这代表了大家对于这类尝试的“预设”存在差异

倪昆(Ni Kun): “8th March Scene” is a very complete scene. As sounds of another kind of
medium, the presentation of it is very independent and complete. This independence and completeness make the whole work organic, which will certainly create a sense of control.

I prefer to regard it as an independent work. Liu, Wu and Zhou’s feelings have obvious differences, which stand for the differences among you towards the
presupposition of such kind of attempt.

周斌：
实际上互动是很精彩的，观众在90分钟的现场没有一个退场就是最好的互动，互动包含行为的接触，听觉的感应，灯光的照射和一切触发观众神经感官的环节。
周斌(zhou Bin):
Actually the interaction is wonderful. During the whole 90 minutes, the fact no single audience left can be
treated as the best interaction. Interaction includes the contact of performance, response of listening, lighting of lights and all parts that stimulate audiences’ nerves.

刘成英：
我觉得需要警惕！静态的互动是剧场特有的。
刘成英(LiuChengying):
I think we shouldbe cautious. Static interaction is unique to
theatre.

周斌：
没有必要为区别于剧场演出而回避静态的互动，我的主张是放松自己，没有规则，相信直觉和经验。当然还有很多遗憾，比如观众的主动参与性不够、现场的意外不够等等，但我们走在正确的道路上，这最重要。
周斌(zhou Bin):

In my opinion, it’s unnecessary to avoid static interaction for
distinguishing it from theatre performance. I think we need to relax ourselves, to obey no rules and to believe in intuition and experience. Of course there are still some regrets, for instance, the audiences show no hig enthusiasm in active participation, sudden events is far from enough, etc. Anyway, we are in the right way, which in my view is the most important.

吴承典：
我认为对音乐的干预就不够，他们（三位音乐人）感觉不顺畅是“音乐”的不顺畅，而并非我们干预后的声音不顺畅。我想让音乐变成不那么流畅或断裂的声音。

吴承典(WuChengdian):
I think music intervention isn’t enough. They (the three musicians) felt unsmooth of the music itself, rather
than the music intervened by us. I want the music to become not so smooth.

倪昆：现在出现了一个概念的分歧，什么才是你们理解的“互动”呢？还有“偶发”？
倪昆(Ni Kun): Now there is a divergence on
concept. So in your minds what’s “interaction” and what’s “happening”?

周斌：
“互动”就是艺术家通过某种手段和现场的观众在头脑和感官上发生关系，起起落落、欲罢不能。可以是静态的或是动态的，重要的是有共鸣，观众要有反应。“偶发”的概念很简单，但实现的手段依然考智商，我认为艺术家可以为偶发预置一个触发机关，就是说设定一个可能性的启动环节，但结果有很多种，你无法把握。
周斌(zhou Bin):
“Interaction” is the relation
between artists and audiences’ brains and sensory organs by the help of certain means. This connection will last during the whole process of performance.
Audiences will feel it strongly sometimes while weakly other times. It can be either static or dynamic. Audiences’ responses and sharing with artists are important. The notion of “happening” is quite simple while the method of
achieving is not easy at all. I think artists can presuppose a trigger for happening, namely, they can set a possible starting link in advance. But there are many outcomes and you can’t master it at all.
刘成英：
艺术家在观众中有穿插、观众有进入作品和参与作品。“偶发”不能预设，应该是现场的突发事件，“即兴”是现场实施过程的应变。

刘成英(LiuChengying):
Artists perform among audiences and audiences participate in works. “Happening” can’t be supposed. It should be something happened by accident on the scene. “Impromptu”is the emergency measures during the conducting process on the scene.
吴承典：
艺术家和观者共鸣，观者和观者共鸣，艺术家同观者与空间共鸣。空间和心灵共鸣。“偶发”最难了，也是最精彩的呈显。其实我们感到最爽的就是“偶发”。因为“偶发”我们会找寻到新的可能性。但不能为“偶发”去“偶发”， 要避免骄情。
吴承典(Wu Chengdian):
“Interaction” is the sympatheticsharing between artists and audiences, between audiences, between artist,
audiences and space and between space and heart. “Happening” is the mostdifficult, and the most wonderful part. Actually what excite us most is happening because it enable us to seek new possibilities. At the same time, we
can’t make happenings for the sake of happening. That will be artificial and should be avoided.
刘成英：
赞成。为偶发去偶发就是设计了。
刘成英(LiuChengying):
I agree. It should be defined as design if something happen for happening.
周斌：
设计也是可用的手段之一，实际上我们当然首先要尊重感受和经验，但都需要配合理性的思考去修正与完善。也可以预设一个圈套，但你不知道观众会不会钻或怎样去钻。
周斌(zhou Bin):
Design is also one means we can consider. Actually we should of course firstly listen to our feelings and conduct with our experiences, but rational thinking is also quite
needed to correct and perfect it. We can also presuppose a trap, but you don’t know whether audiences will fall into it or in what way.
吴承典：
预设一个圈套让观者去钻是互动的最大阴谋。
吴承典(Wu Chengdian):

Presupposition of trap is the biggestconspiracy
in interaction

周斌：
重要的是所有的手段最后都应被忽视掉，凸现出的是作品本身。
周斌(zhou Bin):

What’s important is all means will finally be ignored and what’s highlighted is the true part of the work.

倪昆：我的理解，“互动”就存在某种干涉，它通过艺术家所使用的媒介，将第三者拉进艺术家的所设定的语境。行为作品的互动，肯定就不能够忽视“身体”这个媒介。概念沟通，会增加我们大家对于这次创作的认知和梳理。当我们面对下一次的创作时，头脑里马上就会跳出一些内容，比如说，我们该怎样来确定下一次现场的核心创作点（第一次创作，我们可以将“非预设”，“即兴”，“跨媒介”等作为创作出发点）

倪昆(Ni Kun):In my view, “interaction”
involves certain interference. By the ways of mediums adopted by artists, the third party will be arranged in certain context. Interaction of performance of course can’t neglect the engagement of body. Communication of notion will benefit our understanding towards this creation. In this way some points will
emerge from our brains suddenly during our next time’s creation, for instance, how we can decide next time’s core of creation? (We can set “Non-presupposition”, “Impromptu”, “Trans-mediums”, etc, as our starting point for the first time.)
吴承典：
我更感兴趣的是跨媒介的形式能否带来结果的不可预测，从而找到一种“和稀泥”的方式来表达我的想法---只是形式和手段上的。我不会用很多支不同大小的笔勉强画出一副可知的美丽图画

吴承典(Wu Chengdian):

What interest me more
is whether the trans-medium form can bring unpredictable outcome? If it can
achieve this, then I’m probably able to seek a way to express my thinking. It’s
quite reluctant for me to use many pens of different sizes to paint out a
beautiful picture I’ve already known.



周斌：


实际上每个艺术家的作品都是其自身思考的结果精神性的产物，我们不能为偶发或为互动或为某种手段做作品，但一切的手段都是可以自由运用的，预设不可避免也无需避免，都是手段。重要的还是所有的手段最后都应被忽视掉，凸现出的是作品本身。


周斌(zhou Bin):



As a matter of fact,
the work of each artist is the spiritual product of his thinking. We can’t
create work for the sake of happening, interaction or certain means. All means
can be adopted freely. Presupposition is unavoidable and is no need to be
avoided either. All means at last should be ignored and the true feature of work
will be highlighted.



刘成英：
我还有冒险的想法。那天余极讲他以为我们的作品都是现场的即兴发挥，结果不是。其实未尝不可？哪怕失败也可以尝试一下呢。说不定会激发出新的东西。艺术上我是喜欢冒险和颠覆的。


刘成英(Liu Chengying):
I even think about taking a risk. That day Yu Ji mentioned he guessed earlier all of our works were impromptu while it was not. Actually why can’t we do that? We can have a try even we fail. There are probably some new things. I like to take risk and subvert on art.

周斌：
“庆典”上我们的想法是回避过多的预设，但我并不认为不断的搞不预设方式或更多的偶发就是多麽有价值的探索目标，我个人认为这样的尝试和实验是我们脱离旧有惯性思维的手段，而不是目的。
周斌(zhou Bin):
What we thought on “Celebration’is to avoid
too much presupposition. However, I don’t think attempts on continuous non-presupposition or more
happenings are very valuable. Personally this kind of experiment is just means to depart from the conventional thinking. It’s not the final purpose.

倪昆：我个人其实很喜欢这样混杂的表现现场的，因为混杂，所以它有活力。就3.8的现场说来，声音是存在审美的愉悦感的，虽然现场出现的还是属于即兴声音的范畴，但是它和拒绝审美的噪音还是存在很大差别。在我看来，将来的现场，存在了太多可能性，重要的不是如何确定它的形态类别，而是这样结合后的表达的自由
倪昆(Ni Kun): I prefer to this mix personally. It’s vital and vigorous just because of this mix. As referred to the 8th, March Scene, sounds
have the aesthetic joyfulness. Although what appear on the scene is still impromptu, it differs greatly to the noise which refuses aesthetics. In my view, in
the future, there will be too many possibilities on the scene. What’s importantis not to define what form it belongs to, but the freedom of expression after this combination.





吴承典：


观者可能都感觉混杂，但我感觉并不强烈，这是个人预设的结果，表达就不自由。之所以要找寻表达的多种可能性，就是要从混杂中看到可能的方向（适合自己的），目地就是摆脱旧有的思维模式。


吴承典(Wu Chengdian):



The audiences may have
feelings of mix, but I don’t feel this strongly. This is the outcome of
presupposition, thus the expression is not very free. The reason of searching
for various possibilities is to see possible direction (a direction suitable to
ourselves) from this mix and get rid of old thinking pattern.




刘成英：


我更喜欢作品的实施过程，未知的越多对艺术家越具有挑战性、刺激性和创作快感——艺术的“高潮”。


刘成英(Liu Chengying):



I prefer more to the performing
process. For the artists, the more unknown there is the more challenge,
excitement and joys there are. That’s the climax of art.




周斌：


所以下次就是无所不可的制造更多的混乱，在混乱中寻找新的可能性。


周斌(zhou
Bin):


So next time we need to
arrange much mix, and then search for new possibilities from it.





Part 2


人物：


李昆 毛竹 李带果 倪昆





Part 2


Participants:


李昆(Li Kun)
毛竹(Mao Zhu)
李带果(Li Daiguo)倪昆(Ni
Kun)





对话时间：2009年3月18日；3月25日


方式：QQ对话、网络邮件





Date: March 18th, 2009; March 25th,
2009


Communicative Means: Chatting on QQ,
Emails





倪昆：对于实验声音，我不是太了解。“庆典”现场，声音则是非常重要的一个组成部分。现场结束后，我一直有几个疑问想请教。很多人都认为现场的音乐非常的完整，它没有象“行为”部分那样，存在叙事逻辑的片段化，我不知道你们是怎样看的


倪昆(Ni Kun): I’m not very familiar with
experimental sounds. Sound is a very essential
part on the “Celebration” scene. After the scene, several questions
appeared in my brain and I want to consult you here. Many people think the
music of the scene is very complete. It doesn’t have fragmental narration like
performance. So how do you think about
this?



李昆：可能只是有现场行为作对比，才感觉音乐非常的完整，如果单纯是音乐部分，还是片断化的。


李昆(Li Kun): People feel the completeness
of music probably for the reason of comparison with performance. If we consider
music solely, it’s still not complete.



毛竹：。。。。有完整吗，没有吧，我觉得一段一段的，相比而言啊。而且，音乐（或声音）和行为不一样，它是另一种语言。而且声音部分也是有很多“偶发”的内容。大概只是这种偶发线索不象行为那么容易被人看到。


毛竹(Mao Zhu): Is it
complete? I don’t think so. I think comparatively it is one piece after another.
What’s more, the music (or sounds) is different from performance. It’s another
language. There are many “happenings”in sounds as well. It’s probably because
these clues of happening are hard to be found.




李带果：跟李昆想的一样。
但是可能他们想的完整的地方是旋律性比较强的时候。。。
但是我觉得有些地方声音有一点多了。。。


李带果(Li Daiguo)：My
thoughts are the same as Li Kun’s. What people consider completeness are
possibly the parts where strong melodies appear. But I think sounds are too much
on some parts.





倪昆：是不是也存在媒介特质的问题，因为声音是抽象传播的，它不存在视觉形象的问题


倪昆(Ni
Kun):


倪昆(Ni Kun):
Whether it’s because of the special characteristic of this medium? Sound is
spread abstractly and has no image.






毛竹：恩，就这个意思！！这是已有经验的判断结果，因为眼睛在耳朵之前。


毛竹(Mao Zhu): Yeah,
that’s it！This is the
judgment based on former experience. Eyes feel things first and ears second.






李昆：是，而且听觉联想的作用也很大。很容易受已有的听觉记忆干扰。


李昆(Li Kun): Yes.
The association of hearing functions a lot as well. It’s easy to be disturbed by
previous hearing memories.



倪昆：我在现场就有这样的体会，“声音”给“行为”作了注解


倪昆(Ni Kun): I was
aware of this on the scene. “Sounds” provided “performance” with explanations
and annotations.



毛竹：我有些地方会刻意去配合，这样不好吗？因为我发现了某人的动作，然后用声音与其互动。。。。


毛竹(Mao Zhu): I
cooperated intentionally on some parts. Why define it as “bad”? When I caught
someone’s actions, I’ll interact with that person by sounds.




李昆：我没有刻意去配合行为。就像早期的默片现场


李昆(Li Kun): I
didn’t cooperate deliberately. It’s just like the earlier scene of silent movie.




李带果：我也有一些故意的配合，但是最多是自然的反应。有的时候你对某个人的动作反应很自然，那你们两个下面的动作会感觉是预先配合好的样子。。。我跟别的乐手也经常在找这个感觉。


李带果(Li Daiguo): My
work also contained some deliberate cooperation while natural reactions appeared
much more. Sometimes if you’re very natural to someone’s reaction, then you’ll be
in an unspoken consensus
during next process. I always look for this feeling with other
musicians as well.



倪昆：在事后的交谈中，李昆谈到了一个概念，就是“声音艺术”和“音乐艺术”，我觉得很重要，因为这代表了不同的形态。就现场完成的声音说来，你们认为，它更偏向哪一种？


倪昆(Ni Kun): During
a conversation after the scene, Li Kun talked about a concept of “Sound Art” and
“Music Art”. I think this is important because it stands for different forms. As
referred to the sounds on the scene, which one do you think it belongs
to?



李昆：音乐艺术


李昆(Li Kun): Music
Art



李带果：同意


李带果(Li Daiguo):
I
agree with that.



倪昆：可以更仔细的介绍下这两种方向的特征么


倪昆(Ni Kun): Can
you introduce the characteristics of these two in detail?



毛竹：“声音”是一个比“音乐”更原始的概念吧，音乐就是有选择的使用一些声音，把它们排列成各种形态。


毛竹(Mao Zhu):
Compared with “music”, “Sound” is a more primitive concept. “Music” chooses
certain sounds and arranges them in various kinds of forms.




李昆：声音可能需要的是生活体验，而音乐的审美倾向或功能作用更明显。


李昆(Li Kun): Sounds
may require life experience while music is more obvious on its esthetic tendency or functions.




李带果：我想将来也不用声音表演，就直接用我脑子里发出的震动。


李带果(Li Daiguo): I’m
thinking in future I won’t adopt music in my performance. What I’ll use is the
shake from my brain.



倪昆：明白了，所以在现场，会有关于审美愉悦的体验。你们是怎么来看待这次的现场作品的


倪昆(Ni
Kun):Oh, I see. So
people will have experience of esthetic joy on the scene. How do you think about
these works during this
scene?





李昆：一次有意思的试探，我的目的性不是很明确。不像他们，有一个既定目标。我比较同意周斌的观点，因为只要足够放松，就是一个好的开端


李昆(Li Kun): It’s
an interesting try. Unlike them who have given goal, I don’t have very clear
purpose. I agree with Zhou Bin on this point that only if we’re relaxed enough,
then that’s the good start.



毛竹：我觉得很有趣，和以前不一样，除了用耳朵还得用上眼睛。我也更喜欢周的说法，更加平和些。那天的现场确实很剧场的感觉，但我觉得剧场也没什么不好。上次在周家看的碟子，就是几个黑衣服艺术家的那个，也很剧场的（指的是“黑市国际”在泰国的8人现场）。


毛竹(Mao Zhu): I think that’s very
fascinating. Different from previous scenes, this time eyes and ears are both
needed when watching the scene. I like Zhou bin’s points as well. The scene that
day indeed has the atmosphere of a theater but I don’t think that’s bad. Last
time, we watched DVD at Zhou’s home. It was about several artists with black
clothes and it also had strong tendency of theater atmosphere. (It refers to the
performance of “Black Market Internation”
in Thailand participated by 8
artists)



李昆：这可能是立场的问题


李昆(Li Kun): It’s
maybe a question of standpoint.



倪昆：是的，这里头其实有艺术家不少的期待，期待通过不同媒介的介入来打破之前的一些艺术模式，我觉得这非常的有意义。包括我们的交谈，其实也是希望通过再梳理，来寻找潜在的可能


倪昆(Ni Kun): Yes.
Here actually exist many expectations from artists. They expect to break the
former art patterns with intervention of different mediums. I think this is very
significant. In fact, our conversations also are carried on here for the purpose
of searching for potential possibilities by means of re-analysis.




李昆：不过，从形式而言，做成一个被异化了的集市也不错，就像一个市场，什么人都有。买东西的，卖东西的，有设局的，有入套的，由看客，有维持秩序的。可能大家希望的就是这种状态，一种半自发的状态。


李昆(Li Kun): As for
the pattern, I think an alienated market is also a good choose. Just like a
common marker with different kinds of person. Buyers, sellers, people who set a
trap, people who fall into a trap, onlookers and people who maintain orders. This probably is a state what
everyone expects—a half-spontaneous state.




毛竹：可能音乐和行为，多媒体什么的交流还不够，我是说在现场，多种媒体的交叉感染也不够。如果希望不同的媒介更加融合在一起的话，可以靠事先的交流和排练来达到。但是这样的话，是不是有变成预谋太多呢？就是实验话剧嘛。或者叫实验现场。


毛竹(Mao Zhu): The
communication among music, performance and multi-mediums probably is not enough.
I mean the overlapping influence of multi-mediums on the scene is not enough
either. If we hope different mediums can be more harmonious when they appear
together, we can communicate and rehearse in advance. However, this will in the
meanwhile cause another question of too much previous plan. It’s experimental
stage play, or experimental scene.



李带果：我就是想做这种“话剧”。


李带果(Li Daiguo):
This stage play is exactly what I want to
conduct.



倪昆：是的，这确实也是一种可以选择的方向，但是不排除还有其它的可能。


倪昆(Ni Kun):Yes.
This surely is a direction we can choose. But there still are other
possibilities we can’t exclude.



毛竹：“半”设计“半”即兴？


毛竹(Mao Zhu): How
about “half design” and “half impromptu”?



李昆：从个人感觉，现在不用去谈试验，先锋。这是上个时代的事，现在应该是反思和整合。


李昆(Li Kun):
Personally, at present there’s no need to talk about experiment or avant-garde.
What we should do now is introspection and
integration.



李带果：不过现在的很多人还是会有一个追求“新”的状态。因为很多人是看/听见没碰过的东西的时候才真的注意它。而且象那几天我们6个人在谈事情，我觉得有几次听见人说
“什么什么事情是已经被别人做过的了。”如果我们一直在找那种形式上“新”，那我们肯定会自然的变成那种想当
“选择”
的艺术家。


李带果(Li Daiguo):
However, now many people are still in a state searching for “new things”. Many
people really pay attention to certain things when they see or hear something
they’ve never got in touch with. For example, during those days, six of us
chatted together. Several times I heard someone mention something had been done
by others. If we keep on searching for new things on form, then we’ll naturally
become those artists who want to choose.



倪昆：如果现场的特征是“声音艺术”，如果我们以为“纯即兴，非设计”为出发点，是不是整个现场会完全不同？


倪昆(Ni Kun): If the
scene is characterized with “Sound Art” and the starting point of this scene is
set as “Sheer
Impromptu and No Design”,
then will the whole scene be totally different?




毛竹：其实这次我觉得已经比较非设计了，我们就是6个陌生人，只是知道对方是玩什么家伙而已，至于怎么玩，都是那天晚上才知道的。


毛竹(Mao Zhu): In my
mind, actually this time what we do is non-design. We are six strangers and we
only know what the other participants will present. As referred to how they will
present, we had no idea until that night.




李带果：对，会完全不一样，而且有可能会更有意思。其实，我们都知道有几个人要演，
都知道他们是谁，都知道要穿白衣服，都知道会有钢琴和别的乐器。。。如果把更多的准备弄掉可能会出一些我们更想象不到的东西。。。但是这个也不一定是每次的目的。。。


李带果(Li Daiguo): Of
course, it will be totally different. And it will possibly be more interesting.
In fact, we all know how many participants there are, and who they are, we all
know we’ll wear white clothes and there are piano and other instruments. If more preparing parts are
removed, there’ll probably be more unimaginable things. But this shouldn’t be
our purpose of each attempt.



倪昆：我也不提倡“前卫”和“先锋”，不过我觉得有必要提“实验”。并且是立足在我们自己的文化语境里的“试验”才有存在必要性


倪昆(Ni Kun): I
don’t advocate “avant-garde” as well. But I think it’s necessary to mention
experiment—experiment based
on our cultural context has its existing necessity.




李昆：对，我就是这个意思。我们几乎不可能抛弃过去的经验，所以这个纯即兴就谈不上，因为不论怎么被破坏，经验总要派上用场，所以才有用投币或毒品的方式来彻底摆脱经验。


李昆(Li Kun): Right,
that’s exactly what I mean. It’s nearly impossible for us to abandon previous
experiences, so we can’t suppose “Sheer Impromptu”.No matter to what extent it’s
destroyed, experiences will function. So coin is slotted or drug is abused to
totally get rid of experiences.



李带果：哈哈哈哈哈


李带果(Li Daiguo):
(Laugh)




倪昆：李昆指的经验，还是在音乐上的经验，是否存在，其他媒介的介入后，因为彼此干涉而形态改变的可能。至少，我知道在“行为”这个媒介，是存在这样的空间的


倪昆(Ni Kun): The
experience Li kun mentioned is still related to music. Is there possibility when
other mediums get involved the form will be changed because of mutual
intervention? I know at least in the medium of performance there is such space.




李昆：我想“行为”是存在这种现象吧，因为现场可以根据经验来让其达到受控制的程度。就像上次在重庆我看得那场（行为现场），要从偶发来看，那个把自己关在箱子里灌水的就是一个例子（指艺术家任前在2007年在重庆实施的作品《殇》）。


李昆(Li Kun): I
guess this phenomenon does exist in “performance”because the scene can be lead
to certain extent based on experience. Just as that performance scene I saw last
time in Chongqin. If we treat it from the view of happening, that work in which
an artist sealed him in a box (filled with water) is a good example. (That work
refers to performance work Shang
conducted by Ren Qian in 2007)



倪昆：对于观众说来，我们看到的是一个整体，而不是“行为+声音”的组合，就像多米诺骨牌，一张牌倒了，所有的都到了


倪昆(Ni Kun): What
we see as audiences is a whole presentation, instead of the combination of
performance and sounds. It is the same as dominoes. One fall down, then all will
fall down.





李昆：这是有两面性的，正因为是一个整体，只要有一个不到，都能完成


李昆(Li Kun): It is
two-sided. Just because it is a unity, all can be achieved only if one won’t
fall down.



毛竹：说得好！


毛竹(Mao Zhu): Good
points. I can’t agree more.



李带果：：））



倪昆：是的，结果就是结果，不需要论证


倪昆(Ni Kun): That’s
true. Results don’t need argument.





毛竹：总之，现场很好玩，是个好结果。就好象，观众总要想我们表达了个什么。如果你对他说，我们没表达什么，然后他们就会想，那有什么意思。所以音乐就有这个好处，把眼睛闭上的时候，通向耳朵的门才会打开。没有放弃就没有得到，所以观众看得云里雾里。


毛竹(Mao Zhu):
Anyhow, it’s very funny in this scene and that’s really good. Audiences always
want to know what we are expressing. If they are told these works aim at
expressing nothing, then they will think what does that mean. Music is
advantageous in that when we close our eyes then the door to our ears will be
opened. We will gain nothing if we can’t give up something. So these
audiences became puzzled when they see this.



李昆：我觉得，经验的瓶颈是一个普遍的现象。所以我试图做点别的。这也好像说，只要回答你感受到了什么，那就是要表达的。


李昆(Li Kun): In my
mind, it’s very common for people to do things on their experiences, which to
some extent will hinder their search. So I try to do something else. Only to
answer what you feel then that’s what you’ll express.




倪昆：下一次的现场，有什么期待没有


倪昆(Ni Kun): Do you have any expectations to next time’s
activity?





李昆：我的视觉呈现得好好设计下，比如说提供更多的可能性。这次因为视频位置的原因，没有达到预想的效果。本来是想达到一种在影像上进一步异化的效果，但是没表现出来


李昆(Li Kun): I need to well design my
visual presentation, such as to provide more possibilities. My work this time
didn’t achieve the expected effect because of the location of video. It was
originally expected to produce an effect of further
alienation on image while finally failed.



毛竹：我还是多么期待下一次的。因为这次感觉虽然有陌生的地方，但总的来说还是很刺激。我后来在想，如果把钢琴倒在地上放，应该更有趣。


毛竹(Mao Zhu): I expect the next scene
very much. Although I’m not very familiar with some details this time, it’s very
exciting on the whole. I thought it over later. If the piano can be
placed upside down on the ground that should be more interesting.




李带果：不知道，我也是很期待。我用的工具会有一些不一样。我也在考虑/想象不同的现场可以用的沟通方式。我希望我们3个行为的艺术家可以再加一些即兴的东西在里面。。。。这样我们声音和别的媒体的互相反应可以更明显。。。


李带果(Li Daiguo): I don’t know. And I
expect that very much as well. The tools adopted next time will be different.
I’m also imagining and thinking about different communicative ways in different
scenes. I hope three of us can add something
improvisationalto
it. In this way the mutual reaction between our sounds and other mediums will be
more distinct.


单刘成英(Liu Chengying):
From my point of view, it is necessary to subvert the
concept of “performance”. The question how to subvert
is exactly what we
need to discuss and explore. This activity Zhou Bin firstly proposed, in my
opinion, is really at the right time. The existence and development of
avant-garde requires unceasing innovation, or else performance
art will
become traditional art for the public, in other words, it is the time or
performance art to end.

吴承典：
我的出发点很简单，传统的行为有成为即定模式的顷向，观者的心灵感受局限在视觉上或仅限旁观。艺术家要考虑和观者的更深层面的多点和多线性的“互动”。或可以说借助其它媒介和手段来完成艺术家和观者的“交流”。

吴承典(Wu
Chengdian)：
My starting point for this is relatively simple. It’s possible

for traditional performance to form fixed pattern. Audience’s feeling is
restricted to visual part or even to onlooker. Artists should consider deeper
multi-point and multi-linear
interaction with audiences, or consider use of
other medium and means to achieve
communication.

倪昆：我想老刘所指的“颠覆”，首先就是形态上和以往行为作品的剥离，这确实是有益的，至少，看了“庆典”的人，都会觉得它更生动。周斌提到艺术家的“直觉和本能”，老刘提到“场域”，老吴则说到“互动”，这里头有大家对于自己创作方向的体验和认知，核心点，我觉得是在寻找一种更有机的表述。“庆典”应该就是在这个背景下产生的。现在我想大家谈谈，第一次尝试结束后的个人体会。如果存在作品创作之前的预设，它和你们之前的预设，有多大的距离？

倪昆(Ni
Kun): I think the “subversion” Liu mentioned here firstly refers to the
separation from the
former performance works on form. This is indeed
beneficial. At least audiences on “Celebration” feel it’s more interesting and
vivid than the former works.
Zhou Bin mentioned artists’ “intuition and
instinct”.Liu mentioned “field”, Wu mentioned “interaction”. What you said here
include your experience and
understanding towards your creating direction.
I think you’re probably searching for a more organic expression. “Celebration”
should appear in this background. Now I want to hear your feelings after your
first attempt? If you have presupposition before your creation, is there a big
gap between the final result
and your presupposition?

周斌：
一扇虚掩的门被推开了，轻松、自由、始终伴随着兴奋感的创作体验又回来了，这种快乐的感受，我认为是分辨自己是否走在适合于自己的工作方向上的标准。我很满意这次的现场，甚至在想下次能超越多少。即兴或互动等等都是手段不是目的，现场的感觉好最重要。
周斌(zhou
Bin):
A door ajar is opened. Relaxed, free and unceasingly exciting
experiences return back again. This cheerful feeling, in my view, is a standard
to make out whether we’ve chosen the right work suitable to ourselves. I’m quite
satisfied with this scene and I keep thinking how much I can surpass next time.
Both impromptu and interaction are means instead of final purpose. Good feeling
on
  the scene is the most important.

刘成英：
在展览前看现场时，我和周斌讨论艺术家是否可以走出划定的表演区，我当时的直觉告诉我如果那样的话现场可能会混乱，于是作出了否定。现在想起这一点有点后悔，当时的想法完全被经验所害。从这一点上看，几乎扼杀了现场所有的互动和即兴、偶发的东西。就我自己的感受而言，现场实施的过程有一些即兴的东西，都是围绕自己之前的想法在完成作品，与其他艺术家和现场观众的互动和融合不够。当然，整体效果我认为倪昆和观众谈比较合适。我至今都还感受不到整体效果怎样。我还是比较满意自己现场的应变能力。
刘成英(Liu
Chengying):
Before the performance, Zhou Bin and I discussed whether artists
could conduct their works outside the set area when we saw the scene. My
intuition at that time made me believe if in that case the whole scene would be

in a mess. Then I denied this thought without thinking. Now I’m even kind
of regretful. My wrong thought at that time was totally caused by experience.
Consider on this point, this nearly make all interaction, impromptu
and
happenings impossible. With regards to my own feeling, some impromptu appeared
during the process of creation on the scene while on the whole my work
was
conducted according to my earlier thinking and the interaction and fusion with
other artists and audiences was not enough. Of course, as referred to the whole
effect, I think Ni Kun can talk with the audiences. That’ll be more appropriate
because even to now I still can’t tell exactly about the whole effect. Anyhow,
I’m satisfied with my handling measures on the
scene.
吴承典：
感到作品现场的完整性和流畅感是一个错误的结果。这是个人前期预设的结果。真正的偶发还没出现。而结果就是我们可预见的了。片段的精彩是好的，但还期待找到另一种可能性。我前期预设的破坏活动没实现。应该尝试把更多的元素带入场里，找寻彼此的内在关系和不一样的结果。
吴承典(WuChengdian):
I
think the integrity and smoothness of the scene is a wrong result. It is the
outcome of presupposition. True happenings haven’t occurred yet while we’ve
already foreseen the result. It’s splendid of the piece while we’re still in
search for other possibilities. The destruction of my presupposition didn’t be
fulfilled. I should have a try to bring more elements to the scene and search
for inner relation and different

outcome.
倪昆：
3．8现场是一个很完整的现场，因为作为另外一个媒介的“声音”，它在现场的呈现，就非常的独立和完整。这种独立和完整，一方面让整个作品非常的有机，这也势必会造成“有控制感”。我更加倾向于将它作为一个独立作品来看。刚刚老刘，老吴和周斌的体会就存在明显的不同，这代表了大家对于这类尝试的“预设”存在差异

倪昆(Ni
Kun): “8th March Scene” is a very complete scene. As sounds of another kind of

medium, the presentation of it is very independent and complete. This
independence and completeness make the whole work organic, which will certainly
create a sense of control.

I  prefer to
regard it as an independent work. Liu, Wu and Zhou’s feelings have obvious
differences, which stand for the differences among you towards the

presupposition of such kind of
attempt.

周斌：
实际上互动是很精彩的，观众在90分钟的现场没有一个退场就是最好的互动，互动包含行为的接触，听觉的感应，灯光的照射和一切触发观众神经感官的环节。
周斌(zhou
Bin):
Actually the interaction is wonderful. During the whole 90 minutes, the
fact no single audience left can be
treated as the best interaction.
Interaction includes the contact of performance, response of listening, lighting
of lights and all parts that stimulate audiences’ nerves.


刘成英：
我觉得需要警惕！静态的互动是剧场特有的。
刘成英(LiuChengying):
I think we shouldbe
cautious. Static interaction is unique to

theatre.

周斌：
没有必要为区别于剧场演出而回避静态的互动，我的主张是放松自己，没有规则，相信直觉和经验。当然还有很多遗憾，比如观众的主动参与性不够、现场的意外不够等等，但我们走在正确的道路上，这最重要。
周斌(zhou
Bin):

In my opinion, it’s unnecessary to avoid static
interaction for
distinguishing it from theatre performance. I think we need
to relax ourselves, to obey no rules and to believe in intuition and experience.
Of course there are still some regrets, for instance, the audiences show no hig
enthusiasm in active participation, sudden events is far from enough, etc.
Anyway, we are in the right way, which in my view is the most
important.

吴承典：
我认为对音乐的干预就不够，他们（三位音乐人）感觉不顺畅是“音乐”的不顺畅，而并非我们干预后的声音不顺畅。我想让音乐变成不那么流畅或断裂的声音。

吴承典(WuChengdian):
I
think music intervention isn’t enough. They (the three musicians) felt unsmooth
of the music itself, rather
than the music intervened by us. I want the
music to become not so smooth.


倪昆：现在出现了一个概念的分歧，什么才是你们理解的“互动”呢？还有“偶发”？
倪昆(Ni
Kun): Now there is a divergence on
concept. So in your minds what’s
“interaction” and what’s “happening”?


周斌：
“互动”就是艺术家通过某种手段和现场的观众在头脑和感官上发生关系，起起落落、欲罢不能。可以是静态的或是动态的，重要的是有共鸣，观众要有反应。“偶发”的概念很简单，但实现的手段依然考智商，我认为艺术家可以为偶发预置一个触发机关，就是说设定一个可能性的启动环节，但结果有很多种，你无法把握。
周斌(zhou
Bin):
“Interaction” is the relation
between artists and audiences’
brains and sensory organs by the help of certain means. This connection will
last during the whole process of performance.
Audiences will feel it
strongly sometimes while weakly other times. It can be either static or dynamic.
Audiences’ responses and sharing with artists are important. The notion of
“happening” is quite simple while the method of
achieving is not easy at
all. I think artists can presuppose a trigger for happening, namely, they can
set a possible starting link in advance. But there are many outcomes and you
can’t master it at all.

刘成英：
艺术家在观众中有穿插、观众有进入作品和参与作品。“偶发”不能预设，应该是现场的突发事件，“即兴”是现场实施过程的应变。

刘成英(LiuChengying):
Artists
perform among audiences and audiences participate in works. “Happening” can’t be
supposed. It should be something happened by accident on the scene.
“Impromptu”is the emergency measures during the conducting process on the
scene.
吴承典：
艺术家和观者共鸣，观者和观者共鸣，艺术家同观者与空间共鸣。空间和心灵共鸣。“偶发”最难了，也是最精彩的呈显。其实我们感到最爽的就是“偶发”。因为“偶发”我们会找寻到新的可能性。但不能为“偶发”去“偶发”，
要避免骄情。
吴承典(Wu Chengdian):
“Interaction” is the sympatheticsharing between
artists and audiences, between audiences, between artist,
  audiences and
space and between space and heart. “Happening” is the mostdifficult, and the
most wonderful part. Actually what excite us most is happening because it enable
us to seek new possibilities. At the same time, we
  can’t make happenings
for the sake of happening. That will be artificial and should be avoided.

刘成英：
赞成。为偶发去偶发就是设计了。
刘成英(LiuChengying):
I agree. It should be defined
as design if something happen for happening.

周斌：
设计也是可用的手段之一，实际上我们当然首先要尊重感受和经验，但都需要配合理性的思考去修正与完善。也可以预设一个圈套，但你不知道观众会不会钻或怎样去钻。
周斌(zhou
Bin):
Design is also one means we can consider. Actually we should of course
firstly listen to our feelings and conduct with our experiences, but rational
thinking is also quite
  needed to correct and perfect it. We can also
presuppose a trap, but you don’t know whether audiences will fall into it or in
what way.
吴承典：
预设一个圈套让观者去钻是互动的最大阴谋。
吴承典(Wu
Chengdian):

Presupposition of trap is the biggestconspiracy

in interaction  


周斌：
重要的是所有的手段最后都应被忽视掉，凸现出的是作品本身。
周斌(zhou
Bin):

What’s important is all means will finally be ignored
and what’s highlighted is the true part of the
work.

倪昆：我的理解，“互动”就存在某种干涉，它通过艺术家所使用的媒介，将第三者拉进艺术家的所设定的语境。行为作品的互动，肯定就不能够忽视“身体”这个媒介。概念沟通，会增加我们大家对于这次创作的认知和梳理。当我们面对下一次的创作时，头脑里马上就会跳出一些内容，比如说，我们该怎样来确定下一次现场的核心创作点（第一次创作，我们可以将“非预设”，“即兴”，“跨媒介”等作为创作出发点）

倪昆(Ni
Kun):In my view, “interaction”
involves certain interference. By the ways of
mediums adopted by artists, the third party will be arranged in certain context.
Interaction of performance of course can’t neglect the engagement of body.
Communication of notion will benefit our understanding towards this creation. In
this way some points will
  emerge from our brains suddenly during our next
time’s creation, for instance, how we can decide next time’s core of creation?
(We can set “Non-presupposition”, “Impromptu”, “Trans-mediums”,
etc, as  our starting point for the first
time.)
吴承典：
我更感兴趣的是跨媒介的形式能否带来结果的不可预测，从而找到一种“和稀泥”的方式来表达我的想法---只是形式和手段上的。我不会用很多支不同大小的笔勉强画出一副可知的美丽图画

吴承典(Wu
Chengdian):

What interest me more
  is whether the trans-medium form
can bring unpredictable outcome? If it can
  achieve this, then I’m probably
able to seek a way to express my thinking. It’s
  quite reluctant for me to
use many pens of different sizes to paint out a
  beautiful picture I’ve
already known.




周斌：



实际上每个艺术家的作品都是其自身思考的结果精神性的产物，我们不能为偶发或为互动或为某种手段做作品，但一切的手段都是可以自由运用的，预设不可避免也无需避免，都是手段。重要的还是所有的手段最后都应被忽视掉，凸现出的是作品本身。



周斌(zhou Bin):



As a matter of
fact,
  the work of each artist is the spiritual product of his thinking. We
can’t
  create work for the sake of happening, interaction or certain means.
All means
  can be adopted freely. Presupposition is unavoidable and is no
need to be
avoided either. All means at last should be ignored and the true
feature of work
will be highlighted.





刘成英：
我还有冒险的想法。那天余极讲他以为我们的作品都是现场的即兴发挥，结果不是。其实未尝不可？哪怕失败也可以尝试一下呢。说不定会激发出新的东西。艺术上我是喜欢冒险和颠覆的。



刘成英(Liu Chengying):
I even think about taking a risk. That day Yu Ji
mentioned he guessed earlier all of our works were impromptu while it was not.
Actually why can’t we do that? We can have a try even we fail. There are
probably some new things. I like to take risk and subvert on art.


周斌：
“庆典”上我们的想法是回避过多的预设，但我并不认为不断的搞不预设方式或更多的偶发就是多麽有价值的探索目标，我个人认为这样的尝试和实验是我们脱离旧有惯性思维的手段，而不是目的。
周斌(zhou
Bin):
What we thought on “Celebration’is to avoid
too much
presupposition. However, I don’t think attempts on continuous non-presupposition
or more
happenings are very valuable. Personally this kind of experiment is
just means to depart from the conventional thinking. It’s not the final purpose.



倪昆：我个人其实很喜欢这样混杂的表现现场的，因为混杂，所以它有活力。就3.8的现场说来，声音是存在审美的愉悦感的，虽然现场出现的还是属于即兴声音的范畴，但是它和拒绝审美的噪音还是存在很大差别。在我看来，将来的现场，存在了太多可能性，重要的不是如何确定它的形态类别，而是这样结合后的表达的自由
倪昆(Ni
Kun): I prefer to this mix personally. It’s vital and vigorous just because of
this mix. As referred to the 8th, March Scene, sounds
have
the aesthetic joyfulness. Although what appear
on the scene is still impromptu, it differs greatly to the
noise which refuses aesthetics. In my view, in
the future, there will be too
many possibilities on the scene. What’s importantis not to define what form it
belongs to, but the freedom of expression after this combination.

吴承典：
观者可能都感觉混杂，但我感觉并不强烈，这是个人预设的结果，表达就不自由。之所以要找寻表达的多种可能性，就是要从混杂中看到可能的方向（适合自己的），目地就是摆脱旧有的思维模式。
吴承典(Wu
Chengdian):
The audiences may have
  feelings of mix, but I don’t feel
this strongly. This is the outcome of
  presupposition, thus the expression
is not very free. The reason of searching
  for various possibilities is to
see possible direction (a direction suitable to
  ourselves) from this mix
and get rid of old thinking pattern.





刘成英：



我更喜欢作品的实施过程，未知的越多对艺术家越具有挑战性、刺激性和创作快感——艺术的“高潮”。



刘成英(Liu Chengying):



I prefer more to
the performing
process. For the artists, the more unknown there is the more
challenge,
excitement and joys there are. That’s the climax of
art.





周斌：



所以下次就是无所不可的制造更多的混乱，在混乱中寻找新的可能性。


周斌(zhou

Bin):


So next time we need to
 
arrange much mix, and then search for new possibilities from it.






Part
2



人物：


李昆
毛竹  李带果
倪昆


 



Part
2



Participants:



李昆(Li Kun) 
毛竹(Mao Zhu) 

李带果(Li Daiguo)倪昆(Ni

Kun)


 




对话时间：2009年3月18日；3月25日



方式：QQ对话、网络邮件



 


Date: March
18th, 2009; March 25th,
2009



Communicative Means: Chatting on QQ,

Emails


 




倪昆：对于实验声音，我不是太了解。“庆典”现场，声音则是非常重要的一个组成部分。现场结束后，我一直有几个疑问想请教。很多人都认为现场的音乐非常的完整，它没有象“行为”部分那样，存在叙事逻辑的片段化，我不知道你们是怎样看的



倪昆(Ni Kun): I’m not very familiar with
experimental sounds. Sound
is a very essential
  part on the “Celebration” scene. After the scene,
several questions
  appeared in my brain and I want to consult you here. Many
people think the
  music of the scene is very complete. It doesn’t have
fragmental narration like
  performance. So how do you think about

this?




李昆：可能只是有现场行为作对比，才感觉音乐非常的完整，如果单纯是音乐部分，还是片断化的。



李昆(Li Kun): People feel the completeness
of music probably for the reason
of comparison with performance. If we consider
music solely, it’s still not
complete.




毛竹：。。。。有完整吗，没有吧，我觉得一段一段的，相比而言啊。而且，音乐（或声音）和行为不一样，它是另一种语言。而且声音部分也是有很多“偶发”的内容。大概只是这种偶发线索不象行为那么容易被人看到。



毛竹(Mao Zhu): Is it
complete? I don’t think so. I think comparatively it is
one piece after another.
What’s more, the music (or sounds) is different
from performance. It’s another
language. There are many “happenings”in
sounds as well. It’s probably because
these clues of happening are hard to
be found.




李带果：跟李昆想的一样。

但是可能他们想的完整的地方是旋律性比较强的时候。。。

但是我觉得有些地方声音有一点多了。。。


李带果(Li Daiguo)：My

thoughts are the same as Li Kun’s. What people consider completeness are

possibly the parts where strong melodies appear. But I think sounds are too much

on some parts.


 




倪昆：是不是也存在媒介特质的问题，因为声音是抽象传播的，它不存在视觉形象的问题



倪昆(Ni
Kun):



倪昆(Ni Kun):
Whether it’s because of the special characteristic of
this medium? Sound is
spread abstractly and has no image.




 




毛竹：恩，就这个意思！！这是已有经验的判断结果，因为眼睛在耳朵之前。


毛竹(Mao
Zhu): Yeah,
that’s it！This is the
judgment based on former experience.
Eyes feel things first and ears second.




 




李昆：是，而且听觉联想的作用也很大。很容易受已有的听觉记忆干扰。


李昆(Li
Kun): Yes.
The association of hearing functions a lot as well. It’s easy to
be disturbed by
previous hearing memories.





倪昆：我在现场就有这样的体会，“声音”给“行为”作了注解



倪昆(Ni Kun): I was
aware of this on the scene. “Sounds” provided
“performance” with explanations
and
annotations.




毛竹：我有些地方会刻意去配合，这样不好吗？因为我发现了某人的动作，然后用声音与其互动。。。。



毛竹(Mao Zhu): I
cooperated intentionally on some parts. Why define it as
“bad”? When I caught
someone’s actions, I’ll interact with that person by
sounds.





李昆：我没有刻意去配合行为。就像早期的默片现场


李昆(Li Kun): I

didn’t cooperate deliberately. It’s just like the earlier scene of silent movie.






李带果：我也有一些故意的配合，但是最多是自然的反应。有的时候你对某个人的动作反应很自然，那你们两个下面的动作会感觉是预先配合好的样子。。。我跟别的乐手也经常在找这个感觉。



李带果(Li Daiguo): My
work also contained some deliberate cooperation while
natural reactions appeared
much more. Sometimes if you’re very natural to
someone’s reaction, then you’ll be
in an unspoken consensus
during
next process. I always look for this feeling with other
musicians as
well.




倪昆：在事后的交谈中，李昆谈到了一个概念，就是“声音艺术”和“音乐艺术”，我觉得很重要，因为这代表了不同的形态。就现场完成的声音说来，你们认为，它更偏向哪一种？



倪昆(Ni Kun): During
a conversation after the scene, Li Kun talked
about a concept of “Sound Art” and
“Music Art”. I think this is important
because it stands for different forms. As
referred to the sounds on the
scene, which one do you think it belongs
 
to?




李昆：音乐艺术


李昆(Li Kun): Music

Art




李带果：同意


李带果(Li Daiguo):
I
agree
with that.




倪昆：可以更仔细的介绍下这两种方向的特征么



倪昆(Ni Kun): Can
you introduce the characteristics of these two in
detail?




毛竹：“声音”是一个比“音乐”更原始的概念吧，音乐就是有选择的使用一些声音，把它们排列成各种形态。



毛竹(Mao Zhu):
Compared with “music”, “Sound” is a more primitive concept.
“Music” chooses
certain sounds and arranges them in various kinds of forms.






李昆：声音可能需要的是生活体验，而音乐的审美倾向或功能作用更明显。


李昆(Li
Kun): Sounds
may require life experience while music is more obvious on its
esthetic tendency or functions.





李带果：我想将来也不用声音表演，就直接用我脑子里发出的震动。


李带果(Li
Daiguo): I’m
thinking in future I won’t adopt music in my performance. What
I’ll use is the
shake from my brain.





倪昆：明白了，所以在现场，会有关于审美愉悦的体验。你们是怎么来看待这次的现场作品的



倪昆(Ni
  Kun):Oh, I see. So
people will have
experience of esthetic joy on the scene. How do you think about
these works
during this
  scene?


 




李昆：一次有意思的试探，我的目的性不是很明确。不像他们，有一个既定目标。我比较同意周斌的观点，因为只要足够放松，就是一个好的开端



李昆(Li Kun): It’s
an interesting try. Unlike them who have given goal, I
don’t have very clear
purpose. I agree with Zhou Bin on this point that
only if we’re relaxed enough,
then that’s the good
start.




毛竹：我觉得很有趣，和以前不一样，除了用耳朵还得用上眼睛。我也更喜欢周的说法，更加平和些。那天的现场确实很剧场的感觉，但我觉得剧场也没什么不好。上次在周家看的碟子，就是几个黑衣服艺术家的那个，也很剧场的（指的是“黑市国际”在泰国的8人现场）。



毛竹(Mao Zhu): I think that’s very
fascinating. Different from previous
scenes, this time eyes and ears are both
needed when watching the scene. I
like Zhou bin’s points as well. The scene that
day indeed has the
atmosphere of a theater but I don’t think that’s bad. Last
time, we watched
DVD at Zhou’s home. It was about several artists with black
clothes and it
also had strong tendency of theater atmosphere. (It refers to the

performance of “Black Market Internation”
in Thailand participated by 8

artists)




李昆：这可能是立场的问题


李昆(Li Kun): It’s
maybe a
question of standpoint.




倪昆：是的，这里头其实有艺术家不少的期待，期待通过不同媒介的介入来打破之前的一些艺术模式，我觉得这非常的有意义。包括我们的交谈，其实也是希望通过再梳理，来寻找潜在的可能



倪昆(Ni Kun): Yes.
Here actually exist many expectations from
artists. They expect to break the
former art patterns with intervention of
different mediums. I think this is very
significant. In fact, our
conversations also are carried on here for the purpose
of searching for
potential possibilities by means of re-analysis.






李昆：不过，从形式而言，做成一个被异化了的集市也不错，就像一个市场，什么人都有。买东西的，卖东西的，有设局的，有入套的，由看客，有维持秩序的。可能大家希望的就是这种状态，一种半自发的状态。



李昆(Li Kun): As for
the pattern, I think an alienated market is also a good
choose. Just like a
common marker with different kinds of person. Buyers,
sellers, people who set a
trap, people who fall into a trap, onlookers and
people who maintain orders. This probably is a state what
everyone
expects—a half-spontaneous state.






毛竹：可能音乐和行为，多媒体什么的交流还不够，我是说在现场，多种媒体的交叉感染也不够。如果希望不同的媒介更加融合在一起的话，可以靠事先的交流和排练来达到。但是这样的话，是不是有变成预谋太多呢？就是实验话剧嘛。或者叫实验现场。



毛竹(Mao Zhu): The
communication among music, performance and multi-mediums
probably is not enough.
I mean the overlapping influence of multi-mediums
on the scene is not enough
either. If we hope different mediums can be more
harmonious when they appear
together, we can communicate and rehearse in
advance. However, this will in the
meanwhile cause another question of too
much previous plan. It’s experimental
stage play, or experimental scene.





李带果：我就是想做这种“话剧”。


李带果(Li Daiguo):
This
stage play is exactly what I want to

conduct.




倪昆：是的，这确实也是一种可以选择的方向，但是不排除还有其它的可能。



倪昆(Ni Kun):Yes.
This surely is a direction we can choose. But there
still are other
  possibilities we can’t
exclude.




毛竹：“半”设计“半”即兴？


毛竹(Mao Zhu): How
about
“half design” and “half impromptu”?




李昆：从个人感觉，现在不用去谈试验，先锋。这是上个时代的事，现在应该是反思和整合。



李昆(Li Kun):
Personally, at present there’s no need to talk about experiment
or avant-garde.
What we should do now is introspection and
 
integration.




李带果：不过现在的很多人还是会有一个追求“新”的状态。因为很多人是看/听见没碰过的东西的时候才真的注意它。而且象那几天我们6个人在谈事情，我觉得有几次听见人说

“什么什么事情是已经被别人做过的了。”如果我们一直在找那种形式上“新”，那我们肯定会自然的变成那种想当
“选择”

的艺术家。


李带果(Li Daiguo):

However, now many people are still in a state searching for “new things”.
Many
people really pay attention to certain things when they see or hear
something
they’ve never got in touch with. For example, during those days,
six of us
chatted together. Several times I heard someone mention something
had been done
by others. If we keep on searching for new things on form,
then we’ll naturally
become those artists who want to choose.





倪昆：如果现场的特征是“声音艺术”，如果我们以为“纯即兴，非设计”为出发点，是不是整个现场会完全不同？



倪昆(Ni Kun): If the
scene is characterized with “Sound Art” and the
starting point of this scene is
set as “Sheer

Impromptu and No Design”,
then will the
whole scene be totally different?






毛竹：其实这次我觉得已经比较非设计了，我们就是6个陌生人，只是知道对方是玩什么家伙而已，至于怎么玩，都是那天晚上才知道的。



毛竹(Mao Zhu): In my
mind, actually this time what we do is non-design. We
are six strangers and we
only know what the other participants will
present. As referred to how they will
present, we had no idea until that
night.





李带果：对，会完全不一样，而且有可能会更有意思。其实，我们都知道有几个人要演，
 
都知道他们是谁，都知道要穿白衣服，都知道会有钢琴和别的乐器。。。如果把更多的准备弄掉可能会出一些我们更想象不到的东西。。。但是这个也不一定是每次的目的。。。



李带果(Li Daiguo): Of
course, it will be totally different. And it will
possibly be more interesting.
In fact, we all know how many participants
there are, and who they are, we all
know we’ll wear white clothes and there
are piano and other instruments. If more preparing parts are
removed,
there’ll probably be more unimaginable things. But this shouldn’t be
our
purpose of each attempt.




倪昆：我也不提倡“前卫”和“先锋”，不过我觉得有必要提“实验”。并且是立足在我们自己的文化语境里的“试验”才有存在必要性



倪昆(Ni Kun): I
don’t advocate “avant-garde” as well. But I think
it’s necessary to mention

experiment—experiment based
on our
cultural context has its existing necessity. 
 


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